Water for gas scam part two
I don’t want this to become water for gas blog, but my post from last week has brought a lot of e-mail questions and a few comments that I would like to answer. You can read last week’s post for more information about the problems with water4gas.
Is water for gas a scam?
The answer to this question depends on how you use your vehicle, and also what kind of vehicle you have. Without writing my own book about the subject, what it boils down to is if you have a four-cylinder car and have long highway commutes, this system is ideal for your application.
If you have a V-8 muscle car and do a lot of city driving than this system is not for you at all. Let me explain the above statement a little further. The water for gas system has an on/off switch and does not regulate the hydrogen fuel as related to throttle position or speed. The system operates best when the vehicle is operating at UN interrupted highway speeds. When the vehicle is at a stoplight or an idle condition you’re supposed to reach over and turn off the hydrogen generator.
So if you were in city traffic are getting stopped at multiple traffic lights. You would constantly be reaching over to turn on and off the water for gas system.
Water for gas problem
Next I will address why the water4gas system works better on a four-cylinder engine. The container recommended for the base system produces a small amount of hydrogen brown gas. On a four-cylinder engine, less fuel is required overall and the amount of generated hydrogen complements this operation and will provide a noticeable increase in fuel economy. With a V8 engine you will need multiple tanks and generators to achieve the same results.
Another added benefit of using the system on a four-cylinder engine is that there is plenty of room to mount the hydrogen generator and run the wiring and tubing that is necessary to deliver the gas. I have heard a few complaints of people with V-6 and V-8 engines that they are having troubles finding a place to locate the water for gas system. In fact many people with these larger engines have decided to either remote mount the battery and use that area to mount the water4gas system or remote mount the system in the trunk, which will then require long lengths of tubing and wiring to make it work.
Water for gas review
I know it’s hard to believe that something like this works, but the fact of the matter is that it does work excellent for certain applications. Also note that this system is hand built and may require some tweaking to get it to perform to its best ability. If you are not a do-it-yourself kind of person there are pre-built systems that are ready to install, but will still require time, energy and knowledge to install.
Even if you buy a pre-built water for gas system, you still need to purchase the books that explain the theory and operation of the system so that you can achieve the best results from your efforts.
The water for gas system is not a snap your fingers solution. But with the rising cost of fuel and ever worsening economy it sure seems like it is worth the effort. If you have a four-cylinder vehicle and do a fair amount of highway driving the returns for your time and money invested in the system should be realized with in a couple of months.
I was notified that a new website has secured the resale rights for the system and offers it at half the price. See what other people are saying about the water for gas system on the new run car on water website. You can also view two videos showing the system in action on my is water for gas a scam report page.
Mark Gittelman is an ASE Certified Automotive Master Technician With more than 26 years experience in the auto repair field. See Mark's Car Repair Credentials and Work History on Google+.
To Michael Giles. You sir are only on this forum to tell people about how bad the world is. You are the one who tells others they can’t do something because its your job to make people feel as bad as you feel. If others feel good and they find you, you will disappear because you are afraid of life and will do anything to cut people to pieces. If everyone listened to people like you we would still be drivng horse and buggies.
I have used the HHO system on my car and it works. It works for people who can read and understand and dream about something better, WHICH you are incapable of doing. Take you LOSER attitude and go pound sand moron. There are several 1000′s of people using hho to improve not only mileage but emissions, performance, and a cleaner internal engine.
Bob’s wiping the egg off his face and spending time trying hard to support his scam position and feels it is best not to discuss it any more and just enjoy his neighbor’s success. There is no fool like an educated fool. Bob be a man and admit your puzzlement. Hell Bob it has been 6 months, how long does it take you to run a test, must work for the government on a grant. If Thomas Edison had thought Bob’s way we would still be using candles. Thomas Edison worked by experiment if it worked, it worked, if it didn’t, it didn’t, then move on, that simple.
Where’s Bob?
I am new here, but I can tell You that hho works , if you put all the electronic devices to fool the cars computer in place. If You live somewhere that emissions tests are mandatory, You will not pass that test. Any visible alteration to emissions equipment, automatically fails the vehicle. It works better on older carbed engines than it does on injected engines. Farming equipment does very well, since most of it is slower rpms. I have no explanation of why, or how it works. I just know it has improved My dads equipment performance considerably, and actually decreased fuel consumption by about 25%.
Anyone use this with E-85? I got a vey high compression 400 sbc with a 2bl holly 4412 and a MSD vacuum advance dist.
I have a question – in theory, if a gasoline engine is 100% efficient and all of the energy was used to propel a car weighing 3600 lbs on a purely flat surface, with no waste to heat or breaking or non-essential electrical devices, how far should the car be able to go?
A scam is a scam is a scam and this is one giant scam. I mean really..do you think if there was the slightest chance that GM, Honda, etc would not be investigating? A hydrogen powered car needs a source of fuel, that is hydrogen, and generating it in situ is so absurd it doesnt pass the laugh test. Deceiving people intentionally makes you a criminal in my eyes. Confusing people with “Brown’s Gas” and (HHO) makes these people frauds in my book. The Laws of Thermodynamics can’t be cheated, but you can. I will give $10,000 to any scientific refutation of this. Ask a college professor of Chemistry or Physics. Ask someone with a DEGREE in science like me..(BS chemistry,BS electrical Engineering). You will never find even one who will agree to any of this. Period. The most amazing thing to me is not that non-tech oriented people are scammed..after all I would be clueless in duties of say a lawyer…but that there are unscrupulous people who KNOWINGLY are deceiving you for profit. I hate them and call them charlatans and frauds with no fear of lawsuits.
I drove from VT to Utah twice in two months. the first voyage used the HHO unit. the second trip used water injection. I used a pc data logger to capture location speed EGT RPM calculated load and Mpg timing advance and HHO water temp. after finally sitting down and looking at the data the HHO caused the computer to retard the timing much more during high calculated load and had no beneficial Mpg at low loads.
however once the HHO unit warmed up above 190F the timing advanced and the EGT went down. and like magic the HHO used more water in fact about 5% more water than when it was cold. holy crap I discovered that the MPG went up as well. this is why i now inject between 4% and 7% water at 40% load to 90% calculated load. I let my foot off the gas pedal above 90% load because the computer just adds more fuel and stops mapping with the wide band O2 sensor. look up water injection for kerosene tractors. the water did two things lower the head temperature and make up for the lower compression of the combustion chamber. the extra MPG everyone is seeing is by lower Detonation rates and the higher expansion rate of steem. This is why the HHO books insist on the tweaking to get it just right. too much HHO causes the timing to retard cause it thinks your using crap fuel. all you believers should run 94 octane fuel so you can watch see that it is water vapor doing the work and not the hydrogen doing the work. dump HHO and invest in a wiper washer pump and a spray paint nozzle.
I have really enjoyed the open feedback from so many folks and am poised on the edge to take the plunge and buy the book but find myself waiting with baited breath for Bob. Its better than the climax of a Charles Dickens novel.
Bob if your out there just let us know what you found?
After reading all your input it would be a shame to see you do a HHO split on us
US law applies the Daubert standard in order to prevent the use of “Junk Science” in court. Expert evidence has to be in line with what is recognised generally by that particular branch of science. If a system that created more energy than it consumed was put forward in a court case, the evidence would be rejected under this principle.
But science is always evolving and all aspects are always up for grabs. Properly designed, scientific, independently attested, trials need to be performed. Until that happens, there is not much point in arguing with people who want to believe in systems that defy the rules. They like to believe in these things – let them have their dreams. Somewhere out there are people still trying to convert lead into gold, it keeps them off the streets.
I am also eager to know the results of Bob’s neighbor. How was Bob’s expirement. But I have not heard from him. I have posted my comments on part 1 of this blog because i thought there was no part 2. But I like this part 2 because of Chemist Bob. I am actually convince of his “Law of Physics and Thermodynamics” Energy in – energy out stuff. No doubt about it. It is a common engineering subject. Maybe (I am guessing) the “mystery” of the efficiency that the HHO is contributing lies in the atomic size and behavior of these particles as it reacts with other particles.
When the US denoted the first and second atomic bomb over Japan, it unleashes millions of kwhr energy enough to flattened the city. Do you believe that they used all of there power generators to make that small ball atomic bomb? Or let me say it this way, does the actual energy that the US military uses to make the bomb equaled or lesser the energy that was unleashed in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Of course not. It is already stored or inherent in the material itself. All you have to do is to “excite” the “mediums”. How about the H-bomb? How about the Nuclear Bomb?
Well I am talking nuts! What I am trying to say is that the HHO has an inherent property that would give a boost to the gasoline (which has a different inherent property) to become more efficient, less energy loss. I have not yet discovered the mathematical formula for this HHO behavior. If scientist cannot prove it they call it fiction or scam, but if fictiion becomes a reality the science world will try to make it up by giving a prestigious award or is there another word for that. For the meantime why dont we install a solar power battery (the super thin type, like a cloth) to help produce HHO?
By the way I am also a great immmitator. I also want results and not expirements that waste money. Although I have wasted on some few experiments….HEHEHE.. have a nice guy. It good to have a Scientist Bob on the line.
I have been researching and testing different methods for increasing the economy of vehicles and have found that the concept is sound and does work. One of the first hurdles to cross is with the vehicles ECM (engine computer) . These are hard coded from the factory to fight your effort to make the vehicle more efficient. The simplest way for this to be done is thru the oxygen sensors , and that can be quite a problem . I am now testing a system that seperates the oxygen from the Hydrogen and only adding the hydrogen it so far seems to be working well !! And lets not forget that the whole idea is to increase the mpg anything that is cheap helps is a plus.
Two answers: JCP wants to know how to feed gas into the engine. Split the line and T into a vacuum line as close as you can to the injector assembly and the other hose into the air intake line close to theinjector housing. At low RPMs engine vacuum is powerful and intake air is light. At higher RPMs the reverse is true. There is one school of thought that supports putting it in in the air filter so that the MAF or MAP notes it and adjusts for it. I stongly suggest putting an extension on you O2 sensor or sensors to decrease how much oxygen they detect. If they detect too much oxygen they will tell the computer to richen the mixture because it assumes the engine is too lean. This will negate a mileage improvement but will still give you the smother engine and more power. I also suggest passing the gas through a bubbler to make it safer. Any backfire will not make it to your unit and is more sure than a flash suppressor.
ED says he’s having trouble harvesting the gas. Make sure the lid it tight and glue in, with Plumber’s GOOP, a fitting to take a vacuum hose. Take this hose and run it into a bubbler, again airtight and to the bottom of the bubbler. Fill that about 2/3 full of tap water. Another fitting on the lid of the bubbler harvesting gas from the top and fed to the engine. Vacuum will pull the gas out.
The success or failure of a unit depends on three things and what works on the bench may not be practicle in the vehicle. I have 7 different configerations on my bench but only a couple are vehicle ready. Catalyst gets better gas production as you experiment but the cost is amps and heat. I only use bicarbonate of soda. No lye, borax vinegar, whistles or bells. I adjust the strength of the catalyst until I get maximun gas production at a stable heat level. You can make super units on the bench but they’ll be hot and pulling too many amps in just a few miles of driving. Too thin and not enough gas is produced to be of much use. It seems like no two vehicles react the same way either, making a one size- fits all pretty hard. I run a pint jar size unit using stainless screen then passed to a pint bubbler in my Tracker because there’s no space to do otherwise but it’s much more powerful and currently has a mileage increase of about 15%. Carborated and deisel rigs are much simpler to convert.
Ok! I built the stainless steel outlet covers and attached them properly placed it in water and the resulting bubbles that rose to the top ignited with a bang. All good! the problem is no matter how I attach a plastic tube I cant get the bubbles or any gas to go into the tube. I tried putting plastic over the top and feeding the tube through a tight hole in the plastic but nothing pushed through the tube. I have seen some guys show the stuff pooring out of the tube and pushing itself out of the water in another container. How do they do it????
I realy want to know what the heck happened with BOB. Hey are you embarrassed to tell us what you found. I am building a generator right now and I can’t wait to try it out on my 94 aerostar.
My system is producing hydrogen but I’m having a problem getting enough vacuum through the air intake to get it into the engine. It’s a Mazda Tribute with a 4 cylinder 2 liter. Can you help?
It looks like this started in April and continues until last Tuesday. I’ve seen the ads and was looking to see if they were “for real” or not. This is the first place that didn’t seem to be linked to the water4gas etc. sites. I think I had to go 5 pages into the search to find it. It’s been 25 days since Bob (the biggest naysayer) was going to check with his neighbor and see if it works. That was 3 1/2 weeks ago. I wonder what happened. I would like to believe that it works but want to find out if it does in fact work.
Joe stated: “If it really really worked, GM, FORD, TOYOTA , and all the others would have already done this.”
I humbly disagree with this statement. I’m sure they’re getting FAR BETTER kickbacks from Oil Gurus than the piddly $200 per car you mentioned. The technology ALREADY exists for autos to get better mileage than they currently do. But, let’s face it…money is power. Follow the $$. The Oil tycoons have a tight leash on the situation.
I thank you MRG for your informative website, and for allowing both sides of the arguments to be posted in your blogs. It gets the creative juices flowing. There will ALWAYS be “Nay-Sayers”. If any of these entries spurn someone on to make a better design, that’s what it’s all about…just make sure to send me the updated version
The biggest drawback of this kind of technology is that auto makers have spent years making vehicles user friendly. Half the population don’t know how to open their hood and little in there is rookie servicable. Batteries are sealed, oil doesn’t need checked, nor the coolant. Even the washer fluid lasts until the owner has the oild change place do it all for him. I Haven’t seen a hydrogen system that can go more than a few hundred miles between service checks. Plenty is being done worldwide and in the U.S. on developing systems. Here is a link into youtube to look for yourself what is being done. Some foriegn companys are pursuing hydrogen very seriously and there are plenty of commercial cell builders around. Some of the work us amatuers are doing is scarey at best but some is very well done with impressive results. From this link you can click on other films and see it all from the great to the crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkmgPZgAvPU
Bob this is the direct result of the US public school system….you can’t fix it here…LMAO
If it really really worked, GM, FORD, TOYOTA , and all the others would have already done this. If they could add $200 cost per vehicle and get that mileage, they would do it in a heartbeat. They have CAFE standards to meet over the next 10 years. The mileage jump I believe goes to 35mpg . Trucks and SUVs are already dying in sales, and this would provide them with a quick fix so those all those soccer moms could keep driving their buses. Having worked for Nissan…I know they will do anything to improve mileage and emissions, you can be sure about that. They are already worried about the coming CAFE standards.
ok ive been reading these replys for a while and read the one bob left about blinding the tests. so i did just that. ive been making my own HHO genorator and did a test. i took a 5.5hp b and s motor and but 1 gallon of gas in it sarted it up and ran it wide open till it ran out of gas and stalled. then i put a pully on the motor which ran to an altnator. the altanotor powered my HHO genarator. the hho ran through a tube into the air intake of the carb. i started the motor and ran it wide open. with just gas it ran for about 23 mins. with the gas and hho it ran for 29mins. so bob there is a blind test. please parden me for not spelling right but i did do a blind test and seen results. also i have a 2005 malibu ith a 3.5v6 and before i used hho i my adv mpg was 30.9 and with my 5th desing i am getting 38.6 mpg adv now
Having worked as a Honda mechanic, and having been ASE certified, then leaving and going into the computer field, I am a qualified troubleshooter.
Reality is that we have too close a tie to oil and auto manufacturers, and even if the PHD holding technician/mechanic did exist, why would he go against the $$?
Next, let’s say he’s got a moral fiber, and that he is an honest man that wants to help get the world more efficient and reduce the fossil fuel consumption. I would suggest that oil companies, auto manufacturers, and/or government agencies would do everything possible to stop the concepts, plans, and voice of the man that would threaten their $$. Further, his credit would come under attack, and people would think “SCAM” or “NUTCASE”.
Next, we have the issue of making a uniform, mass produced solution, and marketing it to consumers. The very fact that 4-cyl, 6-cyl, and 8-cyl engines all operate at differing formulas for gas/fuel mix, etc… there is no way we can have a one size fits all. In fact even all 4-cyl engines are not created equal enough to make a one size fits all 4-cyl solution. When dealing with efficiencies, I have seen larger V8 powered 4×4 Chevys get better mileage than 4-cyl Toyota 4x4s.
The reason is that it is way more to economy than simple engine efficiencies. Transmissions, gear-ratios, vibration, tire sizes, wind resistance, drive line angles, and even U-joints can have huge impact on economy, not to mention driving style.
If it were easier to make a one-size fits all solution for water4gas, it would take the world by storm (less the conspiracy theories), but I agree with the author of this blog – results will vary.
Finally, this HHO solution is not for the non-technical person. One must combine the common sense, with the understanding of what is going on under your hood, otherwise there could be disastrous results.
Not too many of the wrench turners hold PHDs in physics, exothermics, or engineering. If you find any, why the heck would they still be turning wrenches?
Oh and chain reactions are an example of an energy source that being release that is far more powerful than the energy it take to start the chain reaction.
Nuclear bombs absolutely do not take as much energy to set off as they release and they obviously dont break the laws of physics.
First off I couldnt tolerate reading all of the bickering but I wanted to respond to a couple of things that bob said. Like mrg (or someone else) said, projects like these need people like you, ie chemist and engineers to improve the processes.
1. Alternator are an example of some engineer find a way to make an engine more efficient. By attatching a dynamo powered by something the car was doing anyhow increased the efficiency of the engine. You are a chemist not a physicist or electrical/mechanical engineer. The alternator does not create energy, it converts kinetic energy to electric. Simple.
2. Like you pointed out, the alternator is not 100% efficient. Though it is variable, there is a minimum draw that often exceeds the electrical needs of the vehicle. This is the energy that is being used to create the HHO.
3. You made a reference to wind energy being bs… Have you ever heard of ram air or turbo boosters? Ram air is proven to increase power and fuel efficiency. Turbo boosters use the exhaust (another source of wasted energy) to compress air even further. I installed a ram air intake and it improved my gas mileage (hwy) by 3-6 mpg depending on how Im driving.
Anyhow, I dont understand how adding hydrogen to the fuel mixture increases gas mileage, though I assume its similar to the idea of NO boosters (I dont understand how adding N makes your vehicle more efficient either). Im not the chemist, you are (however your discipline probably doesnt require much knowledge of what makes things blow up more efficiently). If someone could explain this I would probably invest my money to try this. And I also see this site as a aggressive/deceitful marketing technique.
Arent there any highly skilled mechanics with phds in physics, exothermics, and engineering?
I read about this HHO system and got all excited and ordered a bunch of books and equipment and stuff, and my boyfriend who used to be a mechanic installed it for me and we read all the books to make sure we drove it right. I kept really good records of the miles I drove vs. the gas I paid, both before we installed the system and after the installation. It didn’t save any gas, my car actually got worse mpg, and then it broke on the highway! It was really awful, steam was coming out of the hood and everything I thought it would blow up! And when I took it to my car dealership to get fixed they laughed at me and told me I got scammed
BOB,
I Hope this works out for you.
Im going to build one out of scrap materials from work.
using 304 ss fill rod. 3/32. let me know how yours turns out..